[Tolinar]

Originally Posted by kitaek27

Did you write this? It looks like you copy pasted it from somewhere, unless you purposely put that font up.

I used that font so the tables would line up. The default font is non-block, and Courier New is a block font.

I assure you I wrote that entire thing this morning..
then I went back and edited it, fixing all the various references to "level" so that they read "age" like they are supposed to.

[Tolinar]

My defense of these tactics... it's pretty simple:



When you rebirth, and reset your level, your stats go back to zero.
(If you don't reset your level, then it's true the bulk of your abilities will come from AGE UP)


EDIT: Pardon this argument. During my research I found that stat bonuses from skills are retained when you rebirth. Interesting, but not enough to convince me that 10 is the correct answer every time.


For warriors, where the bulk of your damage comes from skill rank... Maybe AP is important.

But high-level skills cost DOZENS of AP. The tiny gains you make from Age-Up will not match the heavy piles which come from Level Up.


And what about workers? Their skill rank does not always improve chance to succeed... for them, Dex is very important, to maintain their livelihood.

For a character that will never rebirth... true, every last AP will count. But these characters can only level up for a limited number of weeks, and every level is harder to earn. Choosing where to dump the bulk of the levels becomes really important to improving the character. At the point where age up doesn't even award an AP, the only constant is the trickle source of AP... one per level... and the character is COMPLETELY STUCK with whatever stats they had before hitting the WALL at 25.

A no-rebirth character based on Dex, can birth at 10...
or they can birth at 12.

If they birth at 10, they burn 2 weeks worth of levels (which will be the main bulk of the leveling) on low-dex gains.

By birthing at 12, those 2 weeks of levels are all soaked into high-dex gains. The character starts stronger, so it levels up faster and gets more from its "peak ages". Each level comes easier with better stats to augment.

And the total cost in AP? Eight, over the course of 12 weeks.
If the character gains an extra level from having better stats per week-and-a-half, the extra AP combined with better stats will outstrip the losses from not birthing at 10.

In addition, the character starts with 2 AP. This buffers losses from the entire first 3 weeks of play (when the bulk of leveling occurs) - the Age 12 birthed character will have MORE or EQUAL AP to go with its better stats.

With higher starting stats, 2 Bonus starting AP for the first play week, 150% Dex and 150% Stamina gain, the character gets a running start, recovers faster, fails less, and finishes first.

If an Age 12 character with good stats gains 1 extra level per week-and-a-half, he will outstrip an Age 10 character with bad stats entirely.

The real question is... over the course of 13 weeks (almost 4 months) a character will have gained lots of levels. Most of them will have been at the very start....

So, is there any way that within another 2 weeks, the Age 10 character can gain so much more power from the previous eight AP he had in gradual advantage over the last 13 weeks (which may have been whittled away if higher-stat cousin leveled faster)...

that he can surpass the stats of the character who had already amassed such a big stat advantage at the very beginning?


13 weeks of good stats probably beats 2 extra weeks of stat-gaining levels.


If we acknowledge:

13 weeks of good stats probably beats 2 extra weeks of stat-gaining levels, with a poorer stat character.

And
If an Age 12 character with good stats gains 1 extra level per week-and-a-half, he will outstrip an Age 10 character with bad stats entirely.


We now know the EXACT grounds for when an Age 12 Birth is better than Age 10.

[Tolinar]

Originally Posted by kitaek27

If you plan on not getting a rebirth, but want the max possible int (without a rebirth the amount of int you'll have really makes no difference) make a 10 year old and don't level up until you reach age 17.

I would argue, age 21. Maybe 20.
Which is what I was going to post about in that "Old Mage" section until I got tied up back here.

Conclusions I've reached on this topic in particular...

1. No-Rebirth characters benefit strongly from controlling their Birth Age more closely. Low-Rebirth characters as well, since they will be stuck with one statset for a longer period of time.

2. Higher skills may allow you to Level Up quicker after a rebirth by successfully confronting stronger enemies, resulting in deeper stat surges, more total levels and a snowball effect. Extra levels = Extra AP = change of hands in who has the advantage.

As a result, I am not totally convinced that an influence of 1-2 AP per week or two is enough to compensate for the difference

Now, I do not think there is much reason to Rebirth at 15 or higher -- the AP loss is just too great, but you can always simply rebirth again to increase your AP more in 3 weeks.

Because rebirthing to 1 will endlessly supply you with an easy, quick surge of 20-40 AP anytime past 3 weeks, the fragment advantage of 1-2 AP a week is rather inconsequential... and the best thing you can do to enhance production is to raise the baseline stats, to improve level up rate and enlarge the AP surge, so you get the most out of the rebirths that are ACTUALLY fueling your AP drive.


There are fair reasons to rebirth anytime from 10 to 14.
One good reason to rebirth at 17...
And a good reason to be born at 10 and idle for several months while your character ages.


But above all.
There is no question, if you are on the first playthrough, the original birth - as everyone is going to be, coming up soon here... USE these GUIDELINES to get the best STATS.

Case-in-point.
Playing at 17... you get 7 extra AP.
Within 3 weeks, An age 10 magician character will have just barely earned enough AP to be ONE ahead of a 17-birth character, provided they level the same number of times.

And if all 7 starting AP, starting stat advantages, and highly advantageous magic stats, doesn't earn you at least TWO extra levels in three weeks over a barebones age 10 character... you need a little help.

Then, after 3 weeks, AP advantage in hand, you can rebirth to 10 if you feel like.
Optimization means seeing past tradition... people follow patterns because other people do it. That's why it's called FOLLOW.

[Itchy]

Pretty good guide. The effort alone is a great contribution, what more the information. Thanks for sharing this!

[kitaek27]

Tolinar, I understand your views on this. There is not much I can say to argue against your point, since you win when it comes to the one condition:

Rebirthing every 3 weeks.

However most players, no matter how new or experienced, will learn after a few tries that rebirthing 3 weeks is just not good for your health, wallet, and character. The average experienced player would rebirth once every 6 weeks or so, and I would choose to do it once every 10 weeks. If this is the case (and it is in most cases), age 10 would be perfect no matter how you look at it.

The age 17 vs age 20 thing was just a fault on my part. I just said age 17 because it was the older age that everyone talks about. Age 20 might be better for mages, like you said.

If you plan on rebirthing every 3 weeks, and being a super mage, then by all means, older might mean better. Especially when first creating the character.

[TofuCakee]

i wont be rebirthing every 3 weeks, you said tons of times its unhealthy and what not, and i will start at 10. i figure rebirthing and lvling and aging will help my mage any ways. ill rebirth at 25.

[Shogungari]

I'm still confused on where the best place to start would be for someone like me. I need all the dex I can get, partly for archery, partly for cooking, but at the same time I need as much AP as I can possibly get. Granted, I only need 38 AP for the highest current rank on cooking, but for archery I still need almost 900 AP for the mastery and skills (with some other AP going towards rest, campfire, production mastery, and a few combat skills).

[Tolinar]

Originally Posted by Shogungari

I'm still confused on where the best place to start would be for someone like me. I need all the dex I can get, partly for archery, partly for cooking, but at the same time I need as much AP as I can possibly get. Granted, I only need 38 AP for the highest current rank on cooking, but for archery I still need almost 900 AP for the mastery and skills (with some other AP going towards rest, campfire, production mastery, and a few combat skills).

The answer greatly depends on how often you plan to rebirth.

If you're going to rebirth every three weeks, the answer is Age 12.
If you plan to never rebirth, the answer is Age 12.

If you plan to rebirth at or after 25 (several months) the answer is probably Age 12. The less active you are on your character, the more likely the answer is Age 10. You need to earn one extra level every one-and-a-half weeks. If you can't manage it, Age 10 is the answer, since you will get more AP from Age, and that in turn will raise your base stats.


If you do plan to rebirth before Age 25, but not as often as every three weeks, it comes down to activity level. The more superactive you are, the more likely Age 12 is the answer.


If you plan to rebirth every couple of months, then.. as a rough estimate, I'd say...

If you barely get to play an hour a day, that's about 10 hours of game time to earn that extra level, and it may not happen every time per 8 weeks. Go with Age 10, since it's a sure thing.

If you can put up 4 hours or more per day, Age 12 is the answer. The extra level you need should easily happen with 40+ hours to earn it.

If it's two hours... well, it probably depends at that point. Take an educated guess on whether you can level fast enough. If you are confident and very serious about maximum level, and not really a chatty person, go with Age 12 and get an aggressive running start. If you lack that confidence, or you like chatting, sightseeing or lollygagging, stick to Age 10 and take the sure thing.


Finally, if this is your FIRST birth, and not a rebirth - there's no question. Age 12 is right for a Dex-based character.

[Tireku]

Originally Posted by TofuCakee

i wont be rebirthing every 3 weeks, you said tons of times its unhealthy and what not, and i will start at 10. i figure rebirthing and lvling and aging will help my mage any ways. ill rebirth at 25.

I'm going mage also so I'm rebirthing at 25. I'll probably go back to 10 - 12 though.

[Tolinar]

Originally Posted by Tireku

I'm going mage also so I'm rebirthing at 25. I'll probably go back to 10 - 12 though.

I agree totally, good plan.
The Magician advantage rebirth ages are so high, that it's hard to rebirth them without harming your AP really badly.

There might be a good edge in choosing a higher age for the initial birth, but that would depend on how aggressively you play and how soon you plan to rebirth.

Since we have no IDEA when the first rebirth will be... the wisest plan for a magician who wants the utmost is probably a Birth at 10 right now.

Later, when characters are being started with Rebirths definitely avalable anytime (or if the Cash Shop releases Open Beta's first day -- FAT CHANCE) picking a different age might be an advantage.



EDIT: OK, added data on the first page about "Resting" characters.
Added data on recommends to first post.

Guide's done!


Want to know what Age I will be Birthing at?

The answer is, 11.
=3

And I will stay at level 1 until Saturday.
See you in game!